Q: Is there such a thing as a role model for an interim president?
Jim Underwood: There are different kinds of interim presidents. We had one from the outside [Norman Auburn, 1978-79]. After he left Union, John Morris was interim president at two places. But, the fact is, I don't think there is a role model. I suppose this can sound self-serving, but I think it's pretty hard for someone to come in from the outside for one year, because it really takes quite a while to understand the place.
Q: Of the many transitions you've made in more than 40 years at Union, which was the most fulfilling?
J.U.: I used to describe being dean of faculty as not always fun, but often exhilarating and sometimes exhausting. But the most fulfilling period was when I left that position and went back to the faculty. I think it takes a long time away from the classroom, more than a sabbatical year, to develop some perspective and some insight as to how you can be a better teacher. Also, I think the quality of our student body was improving while I was dean of the faculty, so to go back and find very eager and very good students was a great thing. I will probably have more good memories from those years than from any other time that I've been at Union College.
Q: How were you a different teacher when you returned?
J.U.: Among other things, as dean I had a chance to read all the things Union faculty wrote about their teaching – when they were coming up for tenure, for example. I learned there was a great variety of teaching styles, and I also became more self-conscious about what I was doing in the classroom and more willing to take chances. But aside from that, I think people tend to improve at their jobs with age and experience if they have a chance to take a breath. I came back as though I was starting all over again, except with a lot more experience and a lot more wisdom, and a lot more insight. So, I think that's why that time was so good for me. And the students have a lot to do with it-they made some of my classes exhilarating and indeed unforgettable.
Q: How were the students different when you came back?
J.U.: I once said that in an interview in Union College magazine that we had more good students, and I got a note from a former student who happens to be a judge. I sensed some feeling that I might've been dismissing the quality of students I had earlier. So, I sent him back what I think was a Solomonic answer, which was, “I have more students who are like you.” And that was the truth. I did have more students who were like him who really wanted to learn, and you can do almost anything with students who have a passion for learning.
Also, we've always had students with a lot of energy who weren't necessarily great [academically] but went on to be extremely successful in life. I think I learned to ask for more from those kinds of students. I never had students complain that I was overloading them, even though I would really push them very hard. And, I think my grading was clearly tougher than it was when I left to become dean. I don't recall students saying, “you graded me far too harshly.” I think students usually know what the quality of their work is. Sometimes they're surprised the faculty member didn't seem to sense how weak a piece of work really was.
Q: Why did you have an attendance policy?
J.U.: Influenced by my very good friend and colleague Bob Sharlet [Chauncey H. Winters Research Professor of Political Science], I instituted a required attendance policy: anything more than two absences per term results is a one-third grade penalty. I'd say, “Look, you're all here to help each other learn. If you're not in the classroom, you can't contribute.” To those who might say that I'm treating the students like children, I would say, “No, I'm treating them like adults.” And I'd give a few examples: if you're dancing for the New York City Ballet or playing for the Green Bay Packers, it is unacceptable to miss practice. That is the adult world.
Q: You mentioned that you had a number of students who were perhaps not “A” students but who went on to great success. Did you sense something about those students while they were here that told you they're going to really make it in the world?
J.U.: Often, because I think there are different kinds of intelligences. One thing about students like that is that their energy is sometimes misdirected. They might not always have the best grades because they just weren't made to be academics. But that doesn't mean they don't have other kinds of intelligence that would make them very successful, and it doesn't mean that they won't respond in classes when they are pushed hard.
Q: You stay in touch with a lot of former students. How do you keep up?
J.U.: Many of my former students are our friends; we regularly exchange visits with one of them and see others occasionally. There's nothing like a knock at the door and to see a former student standing there. It's really very gratifying. And the older I get, the more gratifying it is.
Q: Two years ago you wrote a little essay in which you said that “teaching was sometimes like standing on your head and spitting nickels.” And you also compared teaching to acting.
J.U.: Standing on your head and spitting nickels was once a common expression for struggling at something. I had a class from which I was getting no good response, even though there were some good students. I kept working and working, trying everything including regular group exercises. I felt like I was standing on my head and spitting nickels. But not much happened. And the grades were terrible, but no one seemed to care. That was the only class I had like that after I came back from being dean. It was an interesting experience, and I still don't have an explanation for it. As to acting, I think there are a lot of similarities between acting and teaching. You are a performer in the classroom, just as you are on the stage. A lot of actors and faculty are shy, but not on the stage or in the classroom. Both need a response. When you've struggled, you leave exhausted. When everything has gone well, you leave with a quiet euphoria; there's no feeling like it. I think both actors and teachers feel as though we're really only as good as our last performance, and that's one of the things that drives you.
Q: What music do you listen to?
J.U.: It would be more interesting to say what I don't listen to. I usually don't listen to folk music. (My good friend, the late Charlie Tidmarch, a great guitar player, once said, “Jim, the fundamental problem is folk singers can't sing.”) I have not had the time to get acquainted with rap, but my first reaction was that it's really more poetry than music. I've had some discussions with students about that. I enjoy opera but I listen more to people like Willie Nelson, Peggy Lee, Ray Charles, Lyle Lovett, Tony Bennett, Billie Holiday and the great pre-bop jazz masters. But if I had only one thing to listen to, it would be Duke Ellington. I think anybody who likes music should get down on his or her knees every day and thank Duke Ellington-advice I stole from Wynton Marsalis.
Q: What are you reading these days?
J.U.: I'm always reading four or five books. I go to something different every evening. This winter, I finished Ernie Pyle's book 1943, on the North African War. It is the most wonderful account of Americans at war and you can't help reading it without being very sympathetic to the people who went and fought and died without complaint. He's a beautiful writer. You'd go a long way to find a better writer than Ernie Pyle, one who could accurately portray the battlefield, because he went to the front lines. The tragedy is that he was killed by a sniper near the end of the Pacific war. As a child during World War II, I heard his name more often than the name of any general.
I'm reading essays by Montaigne, a 16th-century French figure who set out to write about himself and about how one should live his life-very insightful and very relevant today.
I read a lot of political biography. I'm reading a book on Lincoln as a lawyer. Somebody went back and got the records of all his cases. I had written an article on Lincoln, but didn't know in detail his work as a lawyer. Lincoln couldn't bring himself to be at his most effective if he didn't really believe in his client's cause. There's something very admirable about that. I know that can be a handicap as a lawyer, but he won the majority of his cases and was a sort of a legend in the Illinois courts.
The most fascinating thing I've read probably in the last two years was Don Quixote. I hadn't read it since college. I went back and it looked a lot different. I don't have a lot of time every day for reading, but I read anthologies. I love Gore Vidal. I love the George Plimpton anthology of Paris Review stories. I've read two of the best short stories I've read in my life in there. But I don't have time to sit down and read through the whole thing. I love short stories as well as novels, and Graham Greene is a real favorite. To read Monsignor Quixote just after reading Don Quixote was a treat.
Q: Tell us about your wife, Jean.
J.U.: Wow. My word for Jean is wow. This may shock some of my faculty colleagues, but I have to say that I met Jean at a fraternity party. Jean was in a five-year program that gave her a BS degree and an RN. She has worked most of our married life. She worked full-time when we first were married; helped pay my way through graduate school.
I guess about 20 percent of our entire married life has been spent laughing. People always say communication is the secret to happy married life. But, boy, laughing is really, really important. And we spend a fair amount of time dancing. When we lived in Cooperstown, we could walk three blocks and we were at the dance floor of the Otesaga Hotel.
Jean now works for an organization that I would call the most valuable social invention of the 20th century: hospice. She used to work there as a nurse, and now she's a volunteer. We have had two very close friends in the care of hospice, and their last days would've been much worse had it not been for that. Jean is the kind of person who can bring comfort to people. Not everybody has that gift, because most people are squeamish about death and sickness. She's not. I don't know who said this, maybe it's Biblical…that our job here on earth is to bring comfort to those who need it. I think that's a very powerful sentiment, and that is what Jean does.
The older we get, the better our life is. Not everybody can say that. As I think Lincoln would agree, we have received what can only be called an undeserved blessing.
Q: Who are your daughters?
J.U.: Karen was married at the end of July. She lives outside Pittsburgh. She's associate director of admissions half-time, and teaches kindergarten half-time at a private school, Sewickley Academy. She also loves to ballroom dance, and she's better than any of us. Our other daughter, Carolyn, ended up in Nashville partly because I converted her to a love for country music. She's a lawyer, married to a lawyer and has a five-year-old son, Connor. She is currently serving as assistant director of the Tennessee Alcoholic Beverage Commision. She is also a great dancer. Our daughters have a great relationship and they love to spend time with each other.
Q: Did they grow up on campus?
J.U.: Yes. Probably their most vivid memory of campus is the ginkgo tree down in Jackson's Garden. It used to be that the trunk at the bottom wrapped around itself and created a hole. Kids could go through that hole, and that was a favorite place that we would go with both of them. They certainly remember that.
Q: What was it like to work with Roger Hull?
J.U.: I liked working with Roger. He said that if you work for him you have to have a sense of humor. And that's probably true. I've learned a lot of things from him. I spent about half my time as Dean with each President, John and then Roger and I learned from both of them.
Roger is obviously a very high energy person and luckily I am too. But I don't know if anybody has Roger's energy. He'd stay in the office all evening if somebody didn't pull him out. Sometimes Jean would simply drive up to [the administration building] and when I saw the headlights, I'd say, “Well Roger, Jean's here and I certainly can't keep her waiting.” That's how I got away.
Roger and I spent a lot of time together because our offices were so close; it wasn't just staff meetings. I never could convince him to move the Monday morning staff meeting to another time. It wasn't because of what went on, it was because it was Monday morning and I hadn't finished everything from the previous Friday. Meanwhile, Roger had spent the entire weekend figuring out what assignments he was going to give to people.
Eliphalet Nott said “perseverance conquers all.” Roger believes it, and in fact it worked for him. I can think of a number of tough things that he ended up winning only because he persevered until others were exhausted.
Q: What are you asking students about their experience at Union?
J.U.: Before I started this job, I wanted to talk to as many students as possible, especially seniors who've been here for four years. I ask them what's the worst thing about Union. I ask them what's the best thing about Union. I ask them, if you had one thing to change, what would you change? I ask them about what their freshman year was like. What were the dorms like? Could they study in the dorms? I ask those questions and then just let them say anything they want to say about the College. And I keep notes.